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Barnes and... A Conversation with Kay Collett Goss

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Host Steve Barnes sits down with Kay Goss to discuss her book, Mr. Chairman: The Life and Legacy of Wilbur D. Mills.  This biography chronicles the life of Wilbur D. Mills from Kensett, AR to the U.S. House of Representatives where he was chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee from 1958 - 1974.  Goss met Wilbur Mills during her teaching tenure at the University of Arkansas.  Doctoral studies in public administration at West Virginia University lead her to serve Congressman Ray Thorton, where she observed Mills and married his chief of staff, Gene Goss.  Goss currently heads a consulting firm engaged in crisis management planning for nations, states, and metropolitan governments.

TRANSCRIPT

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EVERYONE, THANKS FOR JOINING US. KAY COLLETT GOSS HAS HAD A FINGER IN ARKANSAS POLICY AND POLITICS IN NATIONAL POLICS AND POLICY FOR MUCH OF HER SHE IS A, BASICALLY A 20-YEAR VETERAN OF THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATI PLURAL, GUTTENBERG BERNATORIAL AND PRESIDENTIAL. NOW AT THE AGE OF 35 HAS PRODUCED--

THANK YOU, STEVE.

HAS PRODUCEDA WORKING BUY IOGRAPHY OF NONE OTHER THAN WILBUR D. MILLS, LATE UNITED STATES REPRESENTATIVE OF ARKANSAS, FOREVER A LEGEND, PRIMARILY, BUT NOT EXCLUSIVELY THROUGH HIS LONG-TIME CHAIRMANSHIP, KAY OF THE HOUSE COMMITTEE ON WAYS AND MEANS.

THAT'S RIGHT. HE WAS CHAIRMAN FOR LONGER THAN ANYONE ELSE. AND STILL TO THIS DAY, LONGER MEMBER OF THE COMMITTEE THAN ANYONE ELSE.

A YOUNG LAD, AND HE WAS VERY YOUNG WHEN HE FIRST PUT A TOE IN POLIT START THERE.

OKA HE WAS NOT QUIT25 YEARS OF TO RUN FOR COUNTY JUDGE? AGE ~ IN ARKANSAS WHEN HE DECLARED HIMSELF A CANDE FOR WHITE COUNTY JUDGE. DURING THE CAMPAIGN HE TURNED 25 HE DECLARED HIMSELF A CANDIDATE. HE WAS A VERY POPULAR COUNTY JUDGE IN WHITOUNTY. HE HAPPENS TO BE THE GRANDFR OF OUR FRD JIM GUY TUCKER. SO, ARKANSAS POLITICS IS ALWAYS AMAZING AND INTERESTING.

TUCKER WENT ON TO BRIEFLY SERVE ON AND MEANS.

HE DID, AUTELY. HE SUCCEEDED MR. MILLS YS AND MEANS. MR. MILLS RECOMMENDED HIM TO SPEAKER TIP O'NEILL.

THAT DEPTH HURT.

THAT DIDN'T HURT. ~ ONE OF THE THINGS TIP O'NEILL ASKED HIM, NOW, YOU KNOW, TYM GUY TUCKER IS VERY BRILLIANT AND VERY HANDSOME. IS HE GOING TO BE AROUND FOR HIGH OFFICE RIGHT AWAY IN ARKANSAS? OH, NO, HE JUST WANTS TO BE ON WAYS AND MEANS.

AND WE SHOULD TELL THAT FOR THOSE YOUNGER THAN A CERTAIN AGE, YOUNGER THAN 35, THAT MR. TUCKER RVED A SINGLE TERM AND THEN INDEED TRIED TO

IN THE SENATE HE RAN AT A TIME CONGRESSMAN RAY THORNTON AND CONGRESSMAN DAVID PRYOR RAN. I REMEMBER SEVERAL FRIENDS FROM OUT OF SAID, MY GOODNESS, HOW DOES ARKANSAS HAVE THESE THREE CANDIDATES THATANY OF US WOULD LOVE TO HAVED YOU HAVE THEM ALL RUNNING AGAINST EACH OTHER? DON'T YOU DEMOCRATS TALK TO EACH OTHER? [LAUGHTER]

A DIFFERENT ERA THEN.

THAT'SHT.

FULL DISCLOSURE, KAY GOSS HAS WORKED FOR --

YES.

SO, WE HAVE A LAD FROM KENSET WHO INTERESTINGLY COOKED UP A -- ARRANGED A PROGRAM WHAT WOULD TAKE -- WHOULD HELP THE INDIGENT WITH THEIR CAL EXPENSES.

IT WAS REALLY A FORERUNNER OF HE DID, YOU KN, NATIONALLY FOR MEDICARE AND MEDICAID.

WE'LL GET TO THAT.

SO, WHAT HE DID WAS HE TALKED MS. WHITE NAUGHT WHO RAN THE HOSPITAL IN WHITE COUNTY TO REALLY PROVIDE THOSE ROOMS OR THE HOSPITAL STAYS FREE OF CHARGE. FROM TIME TO TIME SHE WOULD CHARGE $2.50 TO THOSE WHO COULDN'T AFFORD IT. HE TAUGHT THE DRUGGIST INTO PROVIDING DRUGS AT THEIR COST. AND THEN HE GOT THE QUORUM COURT TO APPROPRIATE $5,000 TO COVER THOSE COSTS WHEN A PERSON, IF TH WERE ILL OR HAD A FAMILY MEMB, THEY'D GO TO THEIR LOCAL J.P., JUSTICE OF THE PEACE, AND MAKE THEIR CASE. AND THE JUSTICE OF THE PEACE WOULD TELL THE JUDGE THEY NEEDED HELP.

AND GRAHAM WAS A LOT OF HELP. IT WAS A HUGE APPROPRIATION FOR WHITE COUNTY.

HUGE APPROPRIATION BECAUSE THEN MR. MILLS RAN, ONE OF THE ISSUES THAT WAS FACING THEM WAS ISSUE THAT FACES US NATIONALLY AND FROM TO TIME COMES CLOSE TO BEING AN ISSUE STATEWIDE, AND THT IS DEFICIT SPENDING. SO, WHITE COUNTY WAS ABOUT $16,000 INEBT AT THE TIME.

IN, THIS IS THE '30S, 1930

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE REAL DEPTH OF THE DEPRESSION IN WHITE COUNTY. UNEMPLOYMENT WAS ABOUT 50%. AND, YOU KNOW, THISS WHEN THE BANKS WERE ABLE TO CLOSE FOR AWHILE. MR. MILLS' FATHER REFUSED TO CLOSE THE BANK AND NAMED WILBUR AS THE CASHIER OF THE BANK AND SAID, KEEP IT OPEN. AND HE PUT ALL OF HIS MONEY IN THE BANK TO MAKE SURE THAT IT WAS SOD AND IT WAS ONE OF THE FIRST BANKS TO BE SANCTIONED NATIONALLY TO BE, YOU KNOW, SOD.

CONGRESS BECK ONED AGAIN AT A VERYEARLY AGE.

YES. IT IS AN INTERESTING SERIES OF EVENTS BECAUSE JOE T. ROBINSON WAS, YOU KNOW, SENATE MAJORITY LEADER. HE'S FROM ROANOKE. AND HE JUST FELL OVER AT THE PRIME OF LIFE WITH A HEART ATTACK AND DIED. ANSO, CONGREMAN MILLER, JON E. MILLER, WHO REPRESENTED THE SECOND CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT, DECIDED HE WANTED TO RUN FOR THE SENATE. AND GOVERNORCARL BOLEY DECIDED HE WANTED TO RUN FOR SENATE AS WELL AND THE STATE DEMOCRATIC PARTY NOMINATED BAILEY. AND, SO, THEY HAD TH INDEPENDENCONVENTION -- NEVER HEARD OF BEFORE ORSINCE IN ARKANSAS -- 2000 PEOPLE SHOW UP AND THEY NONATE JON E. MILLER. AND HE ENDS UP ACTUALLY WINNING. WHEN HE WON, THIS CREATED AN OPENING IN THE SECOND CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT. SO, MR. MILLS IS TOWARDS THE END OF HIS SECOND SUCCESSFUL TERM IN WHITE COUNTY. AND, SO, HE RUNS FOR IT. BUT HE HAD ALWAYS WANTED, SINCE HE WAS 8 YEARS OLD, HE WANTED TO BE A CONGRESSMAN BECAUSE CONGRESSMAN STEPHEN -- BILL OLD FIELD WAS A SPANISH WAR VETERAN AND A MEMBER OF WAYS D MEANS AND REPRESENTED THE SECOND CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT. SO, OLD FIELD WOULD COME EVERY YEAR TO A.P. MILLS' GENERAL STORE AND REPORT ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN CONGRESS, WHAT WAS COMING UP, THAT ND OF THING. AND HE WOULD SIT LBUR ON HIS LAUGH AND PAT HIM ON HIS HE AND SAY, A.P., YOUR SON'S GOT THE MAKINGS OF A NE CONGRESSMAN. [LAUGHTER]

MR. MILLS LATER SORT OF LAUGHED ABOUT THAT, SAID CONGRESSMAN OLD FIELD PROBABLY TOLD EVERY FATHER OF A SON, N SO MUCH DAUGHTERS THEN, I GUESS, THAT THEY WOULD HAVE THE MAKINGS OF FINE CONGRESSMEN. HE TOOK IT TO HEART. WHEN HE PLAYED WITH HIS FRIENDS, HE PLAYED HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES AND HE PLAYED THE SPEAKERS. AND THEY HAD 2 BY 4S AND 2 BY 8S FOR THE CHAIRS. SO, HE WAS CONDUCNG HOUSE BUSINESS.

BY THE TIME HE REACHED WASHINGTON, THOUGH, MR. MILLS WAS NOT JUST A LAD FROM KIN SON. HE HAD SECURED HIS LEGAL EDUCATION AT HARVARD.

THAT'S RIGHT.

HE SPENT THREE YEARS IN MBRIDGE. HE HAD SEEN --

HE WAS HENDRIX COLLEGE, THE HARVARD OF THE SOUTH.

YES. AND THEN HE WENT TO HARVARD LAW SCHOOL AND, SO, WHENHE CAME BACK, HE CAME BACK DURING THE DEPRESSION. ONE OF HIS PROFESSORS WAS ASSOCIATE SUPREME COURT JUSTICE FELIX FRANK FURTER. SO, HE WAS QUITE INSPIRED, I THINK ALSO ABOUT ROOSEVELT. ~ HE SAID SOTIMES PEOPLE HERE AT HOME WOULD SAY, WHY DID YOU GO TO HARVARD LAWSCHOOL INSTEAD OF THE UNIVERSITY OF ARKANSAS? AND HE SAID, WELL, I WENT TO HARVARD SO I COULD LEARN TO SPEAK TO PRESIDENT ROOSEVELT.

UM-HM. NOBODY ACCUSED HIM OF NOT HAVING OODLES OF BRILLIANT SMARTS. HE HAD MEY. DID YOUR RESEARCH INDICATE -- HE SEEMED ALMOST INTRINSICALLY COGNIZANT OF HOW MOY MOVES POLICY AND LOVED TO DIDDLE THE FIGURES. I REMEMBER HE LIKED TO GET UP AT 4:30 TO READ THE TAX CODE. YES. WELL, YOU KNOW --

DO YOU THINK HE WAS SHAPED BY THOSE YOUNG -- BYHIS FATHER'S MERCANTILE SPHEIONTIONV?

I DO. A MOST INTESTING PART OF MY RESEARCH WAS THE A.P. MILLS STORE UNTIL '92 WHEN THEY CLOSED IT, HE SHOWED ME THEIR INVENTORY THAT THEY HAD TAKEN IN THE STORE THROUGH THE YEARS. AT THAT TIME THEY HAD ALL OF IT, OF THE FAMILYLL DOES. BUT HE SHOWED ME WHERE MR. MILLS, WILBUR MILLS, WAS ACTUALLY DOING THE INVENTORY OF THE STORE BACK IN THE TIME WHEN U NOT A 1, 12, 13 YEARS OLD. TALL MAN. AND, SO, HE WAS SORT OF THE SHORT KID. AND HE WOULD STAND ON A BOX BEHIND THE CASH REGISTER AND HE WAS CHECKING CUSTOMERS IN AND OUT, YOU KNOW, AROUND THE CLOCK IN THE SUMMER. BUT WHEN HE  FORWARD TO THE -- WISH WE COULD JUST DO THE OLD -- MAYBE WE ARE DOING THE OLD ONE, DATING OURSELVES ANYWAY. [LAUGHTER]

I WAS 35.

ANOTHER BIT OF DISCLOSURE HERE, KAY'S LATA DOZEN YEAYWAY, FROM --

FROM 1963 TO '77.

UNTIL THE TIME HE LEFT, CONGRESS WAS MR. MILLS' AA. WHAT HAPPENED, ADMINISTRATIVE ASSISTANT. NOW IT WOUH STAFF, THE LATE GENE . LET'S GO TO THE '0S. A HANDFUL OF PRESIDENTS TRIED TO GET A BILL THROUGH. MR. KENNEDY TRIED AND FAILED, THEN COMES NOVEMBER 9, '63.J S LBJ IS NOT JFK.

RIGHT. HE GETS A LOT OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS LEGISLATION PASSED. ~ BUT AT THAT TIME MR. MILLS WAS MORE CONCERNED AS THE VIETNAM WAR TOOLED UP, YOU NG UP CONSIDERABLY AND THGREAT SOCIETY LEGISLATION WAS PASSED. THAT CAUSED EXPENSES TO GO UP. AND HE DID NOT SEE PRESIDENT JOHNSON AS BRILLIANT TOWARD ECONOMIC SO, WHEN PRESIDENT JOHNSON WOULD ASK HIM TO SUPPORT TAX INCREASES, HE WOULD USUALLY TURN HIM DOWN. AND HE WOULD SAY, "IF I'M GOING TO GIVE YOU A TAX INCREASE OR IF WE'RE GOING TO WORK TOWARDSU SHORT PERIOD OFIME, YOU HAVE TO SHOW ME THAT YOU'RE CUTTING BACK GOVERNMENT EXPENSES." BECAUSE HE SAID, "IF WE INCREASE TAXES, THOSE WILL BECOME PERMANENT AND YOU'LL JUST SPEND THAT MONEY AND YOU'LL NEVER THINK THAT CAME FR FATHER CONSTANTLY TELLING HIM, "DON'T EVER PAY RENT AND DON'T EVER PAY INTEREST." SO, THAT'S WHAT HIS GOAL WAS WHEN HE WENT TO WASHINGTON AND ON WATO KEEP TAXES AS LOW AS THEY COULD POSSIBLY BE TO COVER OUR EXPENSES, NECESSARY EXPENSES.

UM-HM.

NOW, HE WANTED TO HAVE PEACE THROUGHOUT THE WORLD AND HE WANTED TO END POVERTY THROUGHOUT THE UNITED STATES.HA THOUGHT THAT THEY COULD BE HANDLED, YOU KNOW, WITHIN OUR MEANS.

HE HAD BEEN A RESOLUTE OPPONENT OF WHAT WE NOW KNOW AS MEDICARE.

YES.

-- CURIOU STORY HOW MEDICAID CAME IN.

YES.

HE HAD RESOLUTELY OPPOSED A SUCCESSION OF PRESIDENTS, INCLUDING MR. KENNEDY, ON MEDICARE. THEN AFTER NOVEMBER, IN THE

RIGHT. S PRHNL O

-- WILBUR COULD READ NUMBERS. HE KNEW WHAT AN ELECTION MEANT. SO, WAS THERE -- WAS IT POLITICAL REALITY THAT, THAT TURNED MR. MILLS OR --

YES, COMPASSION. I THINK HE NEVER WENTED TO PASS ANYTHING OUT OF THE WAYS AND MEANS COMMITTEE THAT COULD NOT SOUNDLY PASS THE HOUSE BECAUSE HE THOUGHT WITHOUT THAT HE WOULD NEVER BE ABLE TO WITH THE HOUSE. BUT ALSO IT GAVE HIM AN OPPORTUNITY TO APPOINT MORE DEMOCRATS TO THE COMMITTEE THAT WERE PRO MEDICARE. YOU KNOW, THERE WERE SEVERAL FACTORS. ONE T EDY AND PRESIDENT JOHNSON, AND EVEN TO AN EXTENT PRESIDENT TRUMAN, THEY HAD PROPOSED NATIONAL HEALTH CARE AS A PART OF SOCIAL SECURITY. SOCIAL SECURITY UST FUND BECAUSE HE THOUGHT MEDICARE WOULD EAT UP THE SOCIAL SECURITY TRUST FUND AND THEN THERE WOULDN'T BE THAT. BUT I THINK HE BECAME CONVINCED IN '65 THAT THEY COULD AC HE DE COULD DO IT, HE WAS AFRAID THEY WERE PROMISING TOO MUCH, BUT NOT DELIVERING ENOUGH. SO, WHAT HE DID WAS COMBINE ALL OF THE PROPOSALS, THE REPUBLICAN PROPOSAL, THE SOCIATION PROPOSAL, AND PRESIDENT JOHNSON'S PROPOSAL. AS SORT OF A THREE-LAYER CAKE.

WITH A SEPARATE TRUST FUND --

SEPARATE FOR MEDICARE. AND MEDICARE WOULD BE PAID FOR BY PAYROLL TAXES INSTEAD

STILL, THE AMA WAS -- IT TOOK MR. JOHNSON TO KIND OF BRING THEM AROUND. BASICALLY, HE JUST WHIPPED THEM UNTIL THEY FINALLY SAID, OKAY.

YES.

IN THE COURT OF PUBLIC OPINION. BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THEY WOULD HAVE TO COME OUT AGAINST PEOPLE BEING COVERED FOR MEDICAL EXPENSES.

AND THE OLD FOLKS.

YES.

OLD CARE.

ALL OF THAT. HE WASN'T AS CORE A PRETTY CONSERVATIVE -- STAY WITH MEDICARE JUST A SECOND. WHAT DO YOU THINK? ONE OF THE GREAT FISCAL ISSUES OF THE DAY, NATIONAL POLICY ISSUES OF THE DAY IS ENTITLEMENT. S HE WERE LOAT THIS DEBATE NOW AND HE WOULD SEE -- HE WAS ENORMOUSLY FEARFUL OF THE FUTURE FISCAL IMPLICATIONS.

YES. WELL, HE WAS ALWAYS VERY PROUD THE FINAL MEDICARE BILL. SO, I THINK WHAT HE WOULD BE WORRIED ABOUT IS MAKING SURE THAT THE REVENUE WAS THERE TO COVER THE COST, YOU KNOW. -- I CAN'T EVEN SO MUCH MO IMAGINE IN MY WILDEST IMAGINATION WHAT HIS REACTION WOULD BE TO A $16 TRILLION FEDERAL DEFICIT -- I MEAN DEBT. THE DEFICIT RUNS AROUND COURSE, THIS IS SO MANY YEARS AGO. BUT A BILLION DOLLAR DEBT DEFICIT FROM YEAR TO YEAR WORRIED HIM TO DEATH. AMERICANS OVER CONSUME,UT T WE DO IT ON A PERSONAL BASIS IN CREDIT CARDS. YOU KNOW, HE WOULD CARRY ONE CREDIT CARD WITH HIM JUST IN CASE HE EVER NEEDED A SPECIAL, YOU KNOW, BUT HE WOULDN'T USE CREDIT CARDS. I REMEMBMRS. MILLS, SHE HAD BROKEN A HIP IN 1986 AND IT DIDN'T HEAL PROPERLY. AND SHE HAD A LOT OF PAIN. SO, HE BROUGHT HER DOWN TO UNIVERSITY OF ARKANSAS MEDICAL SCHOOL FOR A HIP CHECKING HER OU HE PULLED OUT HIS CHECKBOOK AND HE SAID, HOW MUCH DO I OWE? AND THE LADY STANDING THERE, YOU KNOW, JUST -- I DON'T THINK SHE HAD EVER -- SHE SAID, WE HAVE TO FIGURE THIS OUT AND WE HAVE TO -- DO YOU HAVE MEDICARE? HE SAYS, PA HPART A. SO, SHE SAID, WELL, PART A IS WHAT WE USE HERE, YOU KNOW. SO, IT WAS JUST FUNNY TO SEE HIM ALWAYS CASH ON THE BARREL HEAD, AS HE WOULD SAY.

NSERVATIVE FELLOW, NOT -- HE WOULD LATER VOLUNTEER, CONCEDE WHAT EVERYONE WAS --

RIGHT.

AS DID MANY OTHERS OF HIS GENERATION WHO WERE IN THEIR FA. OF THAT GENERATION OF SOUTHERN POLITICIANS. NOT ALL OF THEM, BUT SOME OF THEM, INCLUDING MR. MILLS, AT THE SUNSET MR. FULBRIGHT, MAYBE MR. MCCLELLAN. WE VOTED YES OR NO A WILTO VOTE THAT WAY CAUSE I TO GO HOME.

RIGHT, YES. WELL, YOU KNOW, WITH THE LITTLE ROCK CRISIS IN 1957, SAM RAY BURN STARTED ADVISING MRLLS WAS ALWAYS LIKE R EQUAL RIGHTS FOR WOMEN AND HE WAS WITH ALWAYS VERY MUCH OPPOSED TO SEGREGATION BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, RE -- WHEN HE WAS CHAIRMAN OF THE SCHOOL BOARD IN KINSET. THE QUESTION CAME UP FOR BUILDING A SCHOOL FOR AFRICAN-AMERICAN STUDENTS. HE SAID NO, THAT MAKES NO SENSE ECONOMICALLY OR SO, THAT HAD BEEN TAMPLE. THAT HAD BEEN THE WAY MR. MILLS FELT ABOUT IT AS WELL. BUT SAM RAYBURN SAID, YOU DO THAT, YOU'RE GOING TO LOSE YOUR

WHAT WAS THE ACCOMMODATION HE MADE?

YEAH, JUST NOT TALKING ABOUT IT.

WELL, HE WAS APPROACHED AS A BASEBALL FAN, TOO.

OH, MY GOODNESS, TO HIS BASEBALL ON TV, YOUW. BUT HIS BEST FRIEND IN KIN SET WAS BILL DICKEY WHO BECAME THE HALL OF FAME CATCHER. HE USED TO SAY THAT BILL DICKEY HE EVEN MET BABE RUTH AND -- BABE RUTH CALLED MR. MILLS TEA PICKER BECAUSE HE WAS FROM A RURAL STATE.

ON THE ONE HAND, HE LIKED THE FREE MARKET APPROACH, BUT THEN HE SUPPORTED THE RVES.

WHERE DID THAT COM?

PROBABLY BILL DICKEY.

MAYBE DICKEY AS A MANAGER, NOT AS A PLAYER.

RIGHT, LATER YEARS.

YOU ARE CANDID IN THE BOOK. MR. MILLS SPENT A GOOD PART OF HIS FILA AND AS A PRIIZEN.

RIGHT.

ASSISTING PEOPLE WITH ALCOHOLISM OR SUBSTANCE ABUSE.

YES.

YOU ARE CANDID, AND OF COURSE IT'S FAIRLY WELL I THINK HIS YEARS CAME TO AN END.

RIGHT.

HE WAS VERY CANDID ABOUT IT. YOU ARE ALSO -- YOU ARE SO FORTHRIGHTLY IN THE BOOK, MR. MILLS' PROBLEMS WITH TLBEFORE A LOT IF NOBEFORE MOST PEOPLE KNEW HE DID. HE WAS SUSCEPTIBLE TO THAT.

RIGHT. AND, YOU KNOW, HIS BROTHER ROGER TALKED ABOUT HOW WHEN MR. MILLS' FATHER PASAYCOULDN'T GET ANSWER THE PHONE. HE CALLED A FRIEND OF MR. MILLS AND ASKED HIM TO GO OVER TO THE APARTMENT AND KNOCK ON THE DOOR TILL SOMEBODY CAME TO THE DOOR AND TELL HIM. DNANT TO TALK. TURNING OFF THE O SO, YOU KNOW, THERE WERE SEVERAL TIMES, I THINK WHEN HE WOULD PROBABLY GO HOME, HAVE A EN-- HAVE A MEAL, AND THEN STUDY THE LEGISLATION AS YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT READING THE TAX CODE. GET UP EARLY IN THE MORNING AND READ THE TAX CODE. HE ACTUALLY ASKED THE CONGRESSIONAL RESEARCH SERVICE TO SEND HIM COPIES OF ERD RE, AND HE READ ALL OF THOSE. HE HAD ALMOST -- CONSIDERING HE WAS A PERFECTIONIST ESPECIALLY FOR HIMSELF, HE HAD ALMOST NO WAY OF EVER RELAXING. SO, I SEHIM AS BECOMING MORE AND MORE DEPENDENT. AND ALCOHOLISM IS A TREACHEROUS THING IN THAT AFTER AWHILE, IT TAKES OVER. AND YOU THINK YOU CAN CONTROL IT OR WHATEVER, BUT IT'S NOT POSSIBLE TO. AND LL. AND I GUESS ONE OF MR. MILLS' CHALLENGES AFTER HE BEGAN HIS RECOVERY PROCESS, WAS TO FORGIVE HIMSELF BECAUSE BEING A PERFECTIONIST, YOU KNOW, HE HAD HUMILIATED HIMSELF AND HE HAD GONE ALS MORAL PRINCIPLES ANDING. SO, HE WAS DISGUSTED WITH HIMSELF AND HE REALLY DIDN'T WANT TO LIVE. AND, SO, ONE OF HIS SPONSORS IN THE ALCOHOLIC RECOVERY PROCESS SAWHND TIMES A DAY IS, ALCOHOLISM IS NOT A DISGRACE, IT'S A DISEASE. AND SAY THAT. SO, AFTER HE HAD BEEN OUT OF THE TREATMENT CENTER FOR ABOUT SEVEN MONTHS, AND GENE AND I WOULD SAY, HOW ARE HE WOD SAY, NO GOOD, NO GOOD. HE JUST SORT OF RUB HIS HANDS AND WHATEVER. AND THEN AFTER ABOUT SEVEN MONTHS, HE SAID, I FEEL FINE. ~ I'M OKAY. SO, THATS WAS SUCH A MILESTONE

HIS CHAIRMANSHIP WA-- AND IT WASN'T JUST HIS DISEASE THAT BEGAN TO DIMINISH THIS. CONGRESS BEGAN TO CHANGE, TOO.

YES.

PARTICULARLY IN THE POST WATER -- WE GATE EVERYTHING THESE DAYS.

YWAE CONGRESS BEGAN TO CHANGE. THE CLOSED RULE, FOR EXAMPLE, WASN'T QUITE AS CLOSED.

THAT'S RIGHT.

WAYS AND MEANS WAS NO LONGER THE COMMITTEE ON COMMITTEES, WHICH WAS A SECOND SOURCE OF HIS ENORMOUS --

IT WAS, IT WAS. AND I K LOSING THAT POWER REALLY HURT HIM. I REMEMBER WHEN HE WAS TRYING TO DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT TO RUN AGAIN IN 1974. HE SAID TO A GROUP OF FRIENDS, YOU KNOW, I CAN'T DO ANYTHING ANY MORE IN CONGRE THGENERAL CONSENSUS WAS, WELL, YOU CAN'T DO AS MUCH AS YOU ONCE DID, MAYBE, BUT YOU CAN STILL DO MORE THAN ANY OTHER MEMBER OF CONGRESS. AND, SO, HE SORT OF THOUGHT ABOUT THAT A LITTLE WHILE. HE SAID, MAYBE SO.LL RUN AGAIN. WAS IN '74.

REALLY REMARKABLE ABOUT A LAD FROM KIN SET ARKANSAS, POPULATION 700, WHATEVER IT WAS WHEN HE WAS GROWING UP, WOULD BE WATCHED CLOSELY BY KINGS AND FINANCE STERS AROUND THE WORLD. IF HE GOT A COLD, THEY WANTED TO KNOW ABOUT IT.

THAT'S RIGHT. IN '73 HE SAID THAT IF HE COULDN'T GET RELIEF FROM HIS BACK, HE MIGHT RETIRE FROM CONGRESS. AND, SO, ALL OF THOSE PEOPLE GH OH, PLEASE DON'T. AND ALL OF THE MAJOR NEWS MAGAZINES AND NEWSPAPERS HAD EDITORIALS PRAISING HIS WORK TODAY AND SAYING THAT HE WAS POWER ABILITY .

AND IN A VERY REAL WAY HE WAS. NOTHING MUCH MOVED GIVEN HIS COMBINATION OF RESPONSIBILITIES IN WASHINGTON. ~ NOTHING MUCH COULD MOVE WITHOUT --

WELL, I TRY TO BE PLAYING IN CURRENT WHITE HOUSE CONGRESSIONAL DISCUSSIONS. AND I'M PRETTY SURE HE WOULD TRY TO BE SORT OF FATHER LIKE TO THOSE WHO ARE PARTICIPATING ANPAYING DOWN THE DEBT, KEEPING TAXES AS LOW AS POSSIBLE, BUT TO COVER THE DEBT.

KAY COLLETT GOSS, THANK YOU FOR THE BOOK AND THANK YOU FOR THE TIME.

THANK YOU.

THANK YOU SO MUCH. WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT TIME.

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