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Barnes and... The Address

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With this year marking the 150th Anniversary of the Gettysburg Address Steve talks with Dr. Carl Moneyhon a professor of history at the University of Arkansas at Little Rock, and Dr. Tom DeBlack a professor of History at Arkansas Tech University about President Lincoln's powerful speech and its significance and impact on Arkansas and the nation, then and now.

TRANSCRIPT

HELLO AGAIN EVERYONE. THANKS FOR JOINING US. THERE WERE FEWER THAN 300 WORDS. THERE WERE NO STOP WATCH, NEW REALS, VIDEO CAMERAS OR TAPE RECORDERS TO CHECK AGAINST BUT THE CONSE VIEW IS THAT THOSE 14 SCORE WOD LESS THAN TWO MINUTES TO DELIVER. THEIR AUTHOR DOUBTED THEY WOULD BE REMED BEYOND THE TIME IT TOOIM TO UTTER THEM. HE WAS G. SOON IT ENTERED THE LITERATURE OF THE NATION A UCH STONE OF ITS SOUL AND WE WILL SPEND THE NEXT HALF-HOUR AND HOW LINCOLN'S WORDS WERE TAKEN IN ARKANSAS AND WHAT FO. AS SCHOLARS OUR GUESTS ARE IMMINENTLY QUALIFIED . DR. DR. MONEYHON AT THE UNIVERSITY OFARKANSAS OF LITTLE ROCK D DR. TOM DEBLACK FROM ARKANSAS TECH UNIVERSITY. THANKS FOR COMING IN. I SAID THERE WERE 300 WORDS BUT THERE ARE MU VERSION OF THE GETTYSBURG ADDRESS NOT TO QUIBBLE OVER A A OR SOMETHING.

LIKE YOU POINTED OUT THERE WERE NO RECORDING DEVICES AND WHAT LINCOLN PUT ON HIS ORIGINAL DRAFT IS NOT WHAT HE GAVE TO THE SPEECH AND THERE ARE THE NEWSPAPER ACCOUNTS AND HE FINALLY ADDED ADDITIONAL WORDS FOR THE ONLY SIGNED COPY.

REVISED.

I THINK HE THOUGHT ABOUT WHAT HE HAD SAID IN FRONT THE CROWD AND GAVE THE ST VERSION THAT IS ON THE WALL OF THE LINCOLN MEMORIAL

YEAH ABOUT E POETRY REED.

YEAH, INCREDIBLE WORDS AND ENABLED IN EVERYTHING THAT HE DID HE WAS ABLE TO ARTICULATE IDEAS AND THE RDS THAT CONTEMPORARIES WOULD TAND. IN FACT I THINK MODERN READERS WOULD HAVE AHARD TIME WITH IT BECAUSE THE CADENCE ISN'T LIKE ANYTHING WE HAVE ANYMORE.

IT WON'T EXACTLY ROCOCOA BUT AD ITS OWN SIMPLE ELEGANCE TO IT. THIS SFS A MAN COMFORTABLE WITH S.

YEAH AND OF THE ENDEARING MYTHS HE WROTE IT ON A BACK OF A VELOPE ON THE TRAIN TO GETTYSBURG AND OTHERS WHILE HE THAT GOES AGAINST EVERYTHING WE KNOW ABOUT N. HE WAS A CRAFTSMAN TH WORDS AND DIDN'T TO USE ANYTHING BUT TO GET MEANING ACROSS AND THE WORDS THERE.

HE WAS A STUDENT OF HER PEOPLE, WHAT THEY SAID ANDHOW THEY SAID THINGS AND I GUESS -- THE THING THAT WE DO KNOW THAT THE KING JAMES VERSION BIBLE IN MANY RESPECTS HIS DICTIONARY IN TERMS OF RASING AND EVERYTHING BUT AGAIN THAT ILITY TO SOMEHOW TOUCH THE HEARTS OF PEOPLE AT THAT TIME IS AMAZING.

WELL TO THE ADDRESS AND TO ARKANSAS. HOW IS RECEIVED HERE? HOW WAS IT RED HERE? HOW WAS IT REPORTED HERE?

VIRTUALLY NOT AT ALL INITIALLY. LITTLE ROCK HAD FALLEN. IT WAS OCCUPIED B FEDERAL TROOPS BUT AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME AN AWFUL LOT THAT WAS GOING ON THEY WERE TRYING TO STABILIZE THE SITUATION HERE. IT HAS SERIOUS IMPLICATIONS I THINK WHEN THE GOVERNMENT, THE LOYAL GOVERNMENT IS CREATED THE FOLLOWING JANUARY BECAUSE IN A SENSE THE SS REDEFINES A LOT OF ABOUT WHAT AA OPLE PERCEIVED THE UNITED STATES.

YEAH THAT, WAS ONE OF THE CRITICISMS OF IT, NOT ONLY THE SOUTH BUT THE H. A NEWSPAPER LIKE CHICAGO TIMES RESENTED THAT LINCOLN HAD REVOLUTIONIZED THE FOUNDING AND BACK TO THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE.

IN FACT IT COLLIDED WITH THE CONSTITUTION.

YEAH AND TO THE FACT THAT SOUTHERNERS REACTED AT ALL AND NOT IN OUR FAVOR. PARTICULARLY THE NOGZ OF EQUALITY OF ALL PE

AND IN DEFINING US AS A NATION RATHER THAN AS A GOVERNMENT OR A CONSTITUTIONAL --

AN ADMINISTRATION.

ADMINISTRATION OR SOME LIKE THAT. THAT'S A MAJOR KIND OF IFT I THINK IN HOW PEOPLE THOUGHT ABOUT THE UNITED STATES. I MEAN YOU HAVE KIND OF ROMANTIC AUTHORS IN THE 19TH CENTURY TALKING ABOUT BEING AMERICAN OR WHAT IS IT TO BE A CITIZEN OF THE UNITED STATES, BUT I MEAN I DON'T THINK ANYONE THOUGHT OF THEMSELVES QUITE LIKE THAT. THE PREMIER STATEMENT OF NATIONALISM.

AND AGAIN THE CRITICS OF IT SAY HOW DARE HE REDEFINE IT IN THIS WAY. THESE MEN DIED DEFENDING THE CONSTITUTION AND NOT THIS.

AND EVHE PRECISE LANGUAGE AND CONTEMPORANEOUS AND DEFINED A WEEK OR 10 DAYS ENDING HOW THE TELEGRAPH WAS WORKING.

AND SAYS HERE'S HE'S SAYS WE'RE DEDICATED TO E QULT AND WHAT IS THTH ABOUT? IS IT PART OF THE NATION AT ALL?

THE IMPORT OF THE LANGUAGE -- IMPORT OF THE ADDRESS WAS RECOGNIZED IMMEDIATELY.

AND AT THIS TIME HE'S DOING THIS DEFINITION OF NATIONALITY HE'S CONSIDERING THE EMANCIPATION PROCLAMATION AND I HAVEN'T HEARD SOMEONE SAY THERE ANY LINKAGE WAS THE THOUGHT AT THAT DEDICATION SOMEHOW TIED TO WHAT HE WAS ALREADY SAYING THAT IYOU DON'T SURRENDER BY THAT'S -- I JUST SCREWED IT UP. I JUST SCREWED UP THE CHRONOLOGY. BUT IT'S THE YEAR BEFORE AND YOU WONDER WHETHER IT'S CONNECTED SOMEHOW.

WOULD THEY ALMOST HAVE TO BE? [INAUDIBLE]

YEAH. I DON'T KNOW BUT I HAVE NEVER SEEN ANYONE --

[INAUDIBLE]

AND IT'S FUNNY ABOUT LINCOLN AS MUCH AS WE KNOW ABOUT HIM IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT HE ACTUALLY WROTE, THE ACTUAL MATERIAL HE WROTE DOWN IT'S DIFFICULT GET INTO HIS MIND WHAT IS INK GOING AT A PARTICULAR OR WHY IS HE DOING THIS OR THAT? THE LETTERS ARE LIMITED. T BIG DEBATE WHAT HE THOUGHT ABOUT AFRICAN-AMERICANS FOR EXAMPLE WILL NEVER END AND HE NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT IT. >IS HE AS OPAQUE TOYOU? YES IN SOME E WAS A PRACTICAL POLITICIAN SOME WAYS AND CAMPAIGNING AGAINST DOUGLAS AND WHAT HE SAIIN SOUTHERN ILLINOIS DIDN'T ALWAYS MATCH WHAT HE SAID IN NORTHERN ILLINOIS AND DOWN TO PARTS OF KENTUCKY AND HE TEMPERED AND I THINK LIKE A LOT OF GREAT TEAM HIS THINKING REVOLVED OVER TIME AND CARL TALKING ABOUT THE EMANCIPATION PROCLAMATION AND IF YOU DO THIS CAN KEEP THE SLAVES AND IT'S DONE BY THE GETTYSBURG ADDRESS ANHE DOESN'T MENTION GETTYSBURG BY NAME. TIONS THE CEMETERY AND IT'S A ADDRIKE THIS AND THE REMARKS HE WASCALLED UPON TO GIVE.

PERHAPS HE TIMES OVERLOOK THE VENUE OF THE AD, THE SCENE OF THE ADDRESS. ITWAS SLAUGHTER ON A SCALE THAT FEW IF ANY MEN, WOMEN HAVE WITNESSED AT THAT TIME.

AND THE G

ANOTHER INTERESTING -- I DID RESEARCH ON THIS A FEW DAYS AGO. THE INTERESTING THING LINCOLN WAS SCHEDULED TO LEAVE AT A CERTAIN TIME. EABECAUSE THE TR NEEDED TO LEAVE EARLIER AND IF SO HE MIGHT WANT HAVE BEEN THERE TO MAKE THE REMARKS.

WHAT FOLLOWING THE COURSE -- RECONSTRUCTION AND YOU'RE AMONG THEM, CARL N THAT YOU ARGUE OR RECORD IT DID NOT TAKE THE SOUTH -- THE OLD ORDER WAS REESTABLISHING ITSELF, TRYING TO CERTAINLY.

YEAH.

AND HIS ASSASSINATION, DEATH REALLY RAISES QUESTIONS HAPPENE MEAN AS TOM SAYS HIS IDEAS REVOLVING THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE SEPTEMBER 1862 PRELIMINARY E MANSINATION PROCLAMATION AND WHAT HE SAYS AT THE DEDICATION OF THE GETTYSBURG BATTLEFIELD THERE IS A HUGE SHIFT OF IDEAS ABOUT WHAT THE NATION IS AND HAD HE NOT DIED WOULD HE IN A SENSE TOLD THE SOUTH IN 1865 FACE IT YOU LOST THE WAR AND NOW THEN TO THAT. YOU CAN'T COME BACK IN AND EVER BELIEVE YOU'RE EVER GOING TO REASSERT SYSTEM OF SLAVERY OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT. AGENDA AND THE LEGISLATURE NT P ELECTED IN 1866 IS FILLED WITH FARMER CONFEDERATES AND THEY AND GIVEN THAT INCH THEN EVEN WHEN AT SOME POINT AND THEY DO. BY THE MID1870'S THEY'RE THERE AND REVERSING THE IDEA OF A NATION COMMITTED TO EQUALITY. STORY FROM ELISABETH [INAUDIBLE] AND TALKS HOW THE OPPOSING SIDES UNDERSTOOD THE IMPLICATIONS OF THAT DIFFERENTLY AND HOW GRANT WAS NOT ACCEPTED -- WHAT TALKED ABOUT THAT THIS IS A NEW SITUATION, SO THE BATTLE FOR WHAT THE WAR MEANT BEGINS ALMOST IMMEDIATELY AFTER IT'S OVER.

YEAH, AND YOU COULD BLAME THAT ON THE NORTH IN E NORTH NE HAD A CLEAR IDEA HOW THE SOUTH SHOULD COME BACK IN. AT THE END OF THE WAR THEY DIDN'T SAY HERE ARE THREE THINGS YOU MUST DO. IT'S LIKE WE WOULD LIKE YOU DO IT BECAUSE IT'S AN S SENSE YOU HAVE TO REESTABLISH DEMOCRACY, OUR DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM AND ASK A BUNCH OF PEOPLE WHO PURPOSELY TRIED TO LEAVE THE UNION NOW TO KIND OF SAID NT YOU TO RECOGNIZE THE RESULTS OF THE WAR AND HERE'S WHAT WE HAVE BEEN SAYING THE RESULTS ARE BUT WE'RE NOT GOING TO MAKE YOU DO THAT, AND YOU KNOW.

IT'S INTERESTING TOO CARL I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT THIS AS DI THE CIVIL WAR WAS FROM HIS POINT OF VIEW RECONSTRUCTION MIGHT HAVE BEEN MORE DIFFICULT.

MIGHT HAVE, YEAH.

THERE WAS CERTAINLY NO WILL TO CONTINUE MILITARY OCCUPATION OF THE SOUTH MUCH LONGER. TO PUT WAR BEHIND THEM AND LINCOLN'S IMAGE IF HE HAD LIVED MIGHT OF QUITE DIFFERENT.

QUITE DIFFERENT. HE HE WAS THE PRAGMATIST THOUGH HAD TO AND THIS CASCADING, THIS MOUSE ANYWAY OF DEALS FROM THE PRESIDENT'S ASSASSINATION FORWARD AND IN THE HAYES THING THAT SEEMEDTOITD OPEN THE GATES REAL REAL REASSERTION OF THE OLD ORDER, THE PLANTATION POWERS.

AR DATE THE END OF RECONSTRUCTION AND IF YOU GO TO 1890 YOU COULD MAKE THE ARGUMENT THAT THE SOUTH WON RECONSTRUCTION.

YEAH.

AND SOMEONE SAID ACHIEVED BY THE BALLOT WHAT THEY E BULLETS. ALTHOUGH THEY USED PLENTY OF BULLETSES TOO.

AND IN ANAT THE TIME.

AND THERE WERE CONGRESSMAN TRYING TO DO A SENSE OF A COUPLE OF THINGS AND OVERWHELM THE RENAISSANCE OF THE PLANTATION --

CULTURE.

CULTURE OF BILL THAT WOULD PROTECTED PEOPLE IN ELECTIONS AND GOT VOTED DOWN AND AGAIN WLINCOLN WHAT WORECONSTRUCTION LOOK LIKE? IT'S HARD TO KNOW BECAUSE AT LEAST HE WAS THE PRESIDENT OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY. HE WAS OUT OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND JOHNSON WAS A DEMOCRAT AND PUT ON THE BALLOT AS MOWHERE TO GO SO HE BECOMES THE REAL COMPROMISER. HE'S TRYING TO MAKE DEALS ALL AROUND TO ENSURE THAT IN 1868 HE CAN RUN TO GET THE PRESIDENCY SO LINCOLN -- I DON'T OF UGHER, MORE EXPLICIT BUT UNFORTUNATELY HE HAD SET UP NO PLAN REALLY THAT WE CAN SEE -- I MEAN HIS PLAN WAS KIND OF LOOSIE TERM BUT WE DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT HE WOULD HAVE DONE WHEN HE CERTAINLY FACES OLD CONFEDERATES COMING BACK INTO POWER AND MOVING IMMEDIATELY TO HAVE K N-ANS AND INTO A SEMI SLAVERY.

WITH THE EXCEPTION OF COURSE OF YOUR WORKS ONE OF THE SEMINOLE TEXTS IS CASH'S MIND OF A SOUTH WHICH I DUG OUT A COUPLE MAKING EXCUSES FOR THE SOUTH HE POSES THE QUESTION AND THIS IS LATE 30'S WHEN IT WAS PUBLISHED. HE ASKED THE NORTH WHAT DID YOU THINK WAS GOING TO HAPPEN? WHAT DID YOU THERE WOULD BE THIS NEW ORDER, THIS NEW COEXISTENCE, NEW WAY OF LIFE IN A REGION, SOUTHERN HALF OF THE UNITED STATES THAT WAS AGRICULTURAL AND NO THWAGOING ONE OF YOUR BOOKS DOCTOR YOU MENTIONED THAT I THINK I'M QUOTING YOU CORRECTLY THAT "SLAVES CONSTITUTED THE BULK OF PERSONAL PROPERTY VALUE IN POST WAR" . IT WASN'T THE LAND AS MUCH AS THE SLAVEOS THEM.

RIGHT.

WELL, I THINK CASH IS RIGHT. IT'S HARD TO IMAGINPESOUTH TO D WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT E FACT THAT A THIRD OF THE POPULATION WERE AFRICAN-AMERICAN SLAVES WHO IN MANY CASES WERE FORBID BY LAW TO LEARN TO READ AND WRITE. THEY HAD NO PROPERTY. CERTAINL THEY'R FREE. THE LAND ISN'T TAKEN AWAY FROM THE OLD SLAVE OWNERS. I HAVE ALWAYS LOVED THE CASE OF THE FAMILY IN PHILLIPS COUNTY. FOUR SON AND IT THTHE SONS ED T CONFEDERATE ARMY. THE FATHER TAKES THE SLAVES TO TEXAS AND CONTINUES TO GROW COTTON AND SELLS IN MEXICO FOR GOLD AND THE FOURTH HELENA SWEARS ALLEGIANCE TO THE UNION AND THEY CAN'T TAKE THE LAND. THE WAR IS OVER AND HE'S BACK ON TOP IMMEDIATELY. HE COMES BACK WITH GOLD, HIS LAND. ALL OF D A GREAT DEAL OF LABOR THAT HAD NO WHERE TO GO.

NO WHERE ELSE TO GO. THE IDEA THAT BLACKS WERE WANDERING HITHER -- MAYBE IT HAPPENED TO SOME DEGREE BUT NO THEY HAVE TO GO BACK TO WORK. THEY HAVE NO MIGHT BE TRYING TO FIND A PLANTATION WHERE THEIR WIFE OR CHILDREN LIVED OR THINGS LIKE THAT, BUT AGAIN WHAT WAS THE NORTH THINKING IN 1865 WHEN IT ENDED WAS GOING HAPPEN? OTHER THAN THAT PLANTATIONS, THE LANDOWNERRING ELITES IN THE AREA WERE GOING TO REESTABLISH CONTROL.

AND CASH ASSERTS THE NEW H T OLD RATHER THAN DISCONTINUITY AND WOODWARD THAT SAW A LOT OF CHANGE AND CARL'S WORK AND THE CONTEMPORARY SCHOLARSHIP TAKES THAT SIDE AND WAS CHARACTERIZED BY CONTINUITY AND CHANGE CASH'S BOOK COMES OUT THERE AND DIDN'T LIVE TO SEE IT BUT THE BULK OF SCHOLARSHIP WOULD BE ON THE HER THAN CHANGE.

WELL, IMEAN AND PART OF IT I THINK HAS TO DO WITH THE KIND OF GONE WITH THE WIND MISCONCEPTION OF WHAT THE SOUTH WAS BEFORE THE WAR. THAT SOMEHOW YOU HAVE MOONLIGHTING MAGN PLOAT THE PLANTERS THEY'RE INVESTING IN COTTON MILLS AND RAILROADS AND SENDING THE DOCTORS OFF TO GERMANY TO BE DOCTORS AND ALL OF THAT KIND OF THING. TEGEIDEA OF WHAT WAS ACTUALLY HAPPENING.

IT WAS MONEY GENTEEL OR WHITE TRASH.

AND THAT'S NOT TRUE.

THE MOST WERE FARMERS.

AND THE PLANTERS, REPEOPLE A DIDN'T HAVE ALL THEIR EEGS IN ONE BASKET MOST OF THE TIME. THEY WERE TRADING SLAVES FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE AS ANIMALS AND THEY DIDN'T HESITATE FOR A MINUTE. THE IDECAR ABOUT HIS SLAVES AS OTHER THAN AN ASSET IS JUST NOT REALLY RIGHT. I MEAN --

WELL, THE CONSTITUTION DID NOT DESIGNATE A SLAVE TO BE AN ANIMAL BUT HE WAS WANT A HUMAN .

NEVER MENTIONS SLAVERY OR SLAVE BUT WAS CERTAINLY IN THERE BUT GETTING BACK TO THE GETTYSBURG ADDRESS TO ME WHAT IS SIGNIFICANT ABOUT IS WHAT IT MEANS AND IN THE OPINION AND JEFFERSON WRITTEN AND EVEN THOUGH HE WAS A SLAVE OWNER AND ALL MEN WERE CREATED EQUAL AND THERE WERE GOD GIVEN RIGHTS EVERYONE WAS ENTITLED TO AND THE FUNCTION OF RETHAT NE OF THE GREAT THINGS AND ONE OF THE MYTHS STEVE IS YOU HAVE EFVET EDWARDS AND LONG SPEECH AND TAND THERESPORT SPEECH AND IS ONE ORATOR AND THAT'S EVERETT. LINCOLN WAS GOING TO DO REMARKS LIKE A RIBBON CUTTING CEREMONY AND HE TH SPEE PEOPLE WERE CONSIDERED SUCCESSFUL AT THE TIME. IF YOU LOOK AT LINCOLN'S SECRETARY BOTH SPEAK HIGHLY ORATION AND THAT IS IT TODAY.

AND HE DOESN'T MENTION THE BATTLE.  MORE AMBIGUOUS ABOUT WHAT THE WAR WAS ABOUT UP TO THAT POINT. NOT JUST THE GETTYSBURG --

RIGHT. HE TOOK THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO A LOT MORE THAN JUST DEDICATE THE BATTLEFIELD AND DEFINE THE WAR YOU.

LOOK AT THE THTOIT WAS BITTER. I MEAN THE REALITY WAS -- THE DISTANCE BETWEEN THE GOLD THAT WAS IN THE SPEECH AND THE PEWTER THAT WAS THE REALITY IN ARKANSAS AND THE REST THE SOUTH AND THE NATION -- WE'RE STILL TRYING TO PERFORM SOME OF THAT TODAY WHAT? 150 YEARS LATER.

WHEN THE ISAAC MURPHYY GOVERNMENT IS CREATED IN THE S INFLUENCE I MEAN HE IS TRYING TO TAKE PEWTER AND MAKE IT INTO GOLD, BUT HE IS DOING COMPROMISING AS WELL. I MEAN HE'S KIND OF MOVING AROUND. TO BEGIN WITH WHAT DOES THE NORTH EXPECT? HE CAS IS THE ONE TO SUPPORT BECAUSE EVERYONE'S TELLING HIM WHAT THEY THINK HE WANTS TO HEAR BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT THE LOCAL AGENDA IS VERY OFTEN AND THE MILITARY IS A IN TERMS OF IMPLEMENTING THIS AS WELL AND MANY WHITES IN THE U.S. ARMY WERE AS RACIST AS ANY SOUTHERNER WOULD BE.

UNDER MINING --

RACISM WASN'T JUST THAT AND DURING THAT TIME IT WAS ANYWAY IN THE LATE ANTEBELLUM ANYWAY AND IT'S HARD TO SPECULATE WHEN HAVE TURNED OUT DIFFERENTLY ABSENT A LARGE SCALE FEDERAL MILITARY FORCE REMAINING IN THE SOUTH IT'S HARD TO SEE HOW THINGS WOULD HAVE TURNED OUT DIFFERENTLY.

I THINK WHAT THE IRONIC THING THIS ADDRESS. WE TALK ABOUT THIS ADDRESS AND YET I'M NOT SURE EXACTLY HOW MANY PEOPLE TODAY THINK THAT IN FACT WE ARE A NATION COMMITTED TO THESE IDEALS OR TO SECURE THOSE IDEALS. POLITICS -- HAVE YOU HEARD A POLITICIAN LATELY THAT TALKED ABOUT ANY OF THESE CONCEPTS, ANY OF THESE IDEAS. IT'S ALL ABOUT SOMETIMES POLICY AND SOMETIMES NOT SO IN A SAY W HONOR --

MUSIC IS MISSING.

I WAS GOING TO THE SAY THE INSTRUMENT.

THE WHOLE ORCHESTRA IS GONE. TO WHAT EXTENT DOES LINCOLN UNDERSTANDERTHAT THERE ARE NO SINNERS AND THE FIRST 20 MINUTES IN THE SERMON --

HANG ON GENTLEMEN. WE'RE GOING TO CONCLUDE THE ON AIR PORTION BUT WE INVITE YOU TO JOIN US ON FOR A FEW MORE MINUTES AND WHILE WE'RE AT IT. THANKS FOR JOINING US.

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