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Barnes and... A Conversation with Randall Woods

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Steve talks with Randall Woods, the author of ten books including acclaimed biographies of President Lyndon B. Johnson and U.S. Senator J. William Fulbright of Arkansas. "Shadow Warrior," takes an examination of the life and times of William Colby, whose long career on the battlefronts of covert operations and counterintelligence were climaxed by his years as director of the Central Intelligence Agency. Woods will review Colby's extraordinary life – which ended under extraordinarily mysterious circumstances.

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TRANSCRIPT

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HOST: HELLO AGAIN, EVERYONE. THANKS VERCH FOR JOINING US. RANDALWOODS, DR. RANDALL WOODS IS THE OPER DISTINGUISHED PROFESSOR OF HISTORY, DIPLOMATIC HISTORY THE SPECIALTY, AT THE UNIVERSI OF ARKANSAS. HE IS THE AUTHOR NOW OF 10 BOOKS, A COUPLE OF PREVIOUS VOLUMES INCLUDED AWARD WINNING FULBRIGHT OF ARKANSAS AND THE WORLD. THE WORLD. BAINS JOHNSON AND NOW RANDALL IS BACK IN THE UDIO AGAIN. THANKS VERY MUCH FOR MAKING THIS TIME AVAILABLE.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME, STEVE.

HOST: AND THE OCCASION IS THE PROVOCATION OF BOOK NUMBER 10, SHADOW WARRIOR, A BIOGRAPHY OF WILLM EGAN COLB, LATE THE DIRECTOR THE CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY. WHY COLBY?

AS YOU MENTIONED, I HAD DONE WORK ON BILL FULBRIGHT AND  JOHNSON AND THEIR LIVES WERE VERY MUCH INVOLVED WITH THE WAR IN VIETNAM, THE COUNTRY OF VIETNAM. AND I ACH A COURSE ON THE U.S. AND VIETNAM. AND I NOTICED THAT HISTORIANS WHO HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT THE CONFLICT OVER THE PAST 25 OR 30 YEARS REALLY TEND TO STOP AT 1968. IT'S AS IF THE WAR ENDED WITH THE 10 OFFENSES AND WHICH THE MEDIA PORTRAYED AS A DEFEAT FOR THE U.S. AND THE  CRESCENDOING ANTIWAR MOVEMENT. RE THERE FOUR YEARS IN VIETNAM. COLBY, THAT'S HOW I ENCOUNTERED COLBY. COLBY WORKED WITHIN THE CIA WITHIN THE WASHINGTON ESTABLISHMEN IN THE '60S TO PERSUADE LYNDON JOHNSON TO ABANDON WEST MORLAND AND HIS TYPE OF CONVENTIONAL WARFARE WHICH INVOLVED FREE FIREZONES AND MASSIVE SWEEPS, WHICH KILLED OR ALIENATED MILLIONS OF SOUTH VIETNA, PERSUADED JOHNSON TO ABANDON THAT AND TO OPTFOR COUNTER INSURGENCY AND PASSIVE UNIFICATION. AND COLBY AND HIS SUPPORTERS EVENTUALLY PREVAILED. WEST MORLAND WAS REPLACED WITH CRAYTON A BRANS AND IN COLBY WENT TO VIETNAM TO RUN A COUN SURGENCY THE ACRONYM CORDS. IT WAS HUGE PROGRAM INVOLVING CIVILIAN AND MILITARY PEOPLE WHO HABEEN TRAINED IN VIETNAMESE. THEY WENT OUT INTO THE VILLAGES AND HAMLETS, LIVES WITH THE LOCALS, BUILT SCHO AND HOSPITALS BY DAY AND RAN PAS FIGH PHOENIX. THE COUNTER TERRORISM PROGRAM TO TRAIN SOUTH VIETNAMESE TO IDENTIFY AND ASSASSINATE ENEMIES. COLBY AND HIS OPERATION OPERATED IN VIETNAM BY '72, MOST OF THE COUNTRY IN THE SOUTH HAD BEEN PACIFIED. THERE WERE STILL COMMUNIST STRONG HOLDS, BUT THE PASS IF PASSIVE MOVEMENT HAD MADE GREAT STRIDES. THEY DECIDED WE WERE THROUGH IN VIETNAM. THE REVOLUTION THAT COLBY AND CORDS WERE GENERATING THE COUNTRY SIDE NEVER GAINED ANY PURCUTH VIETNAMESE MILITARY GOVERNMENT IN SAIGON, CORRUPT AUTHORITARIAN AND OF COURSE ANTIWAR MOVEMENT WITH CRESTING IN THIS COUNTRY.

HOST: AMERICA HAD HAD ENOUGH.

HAD HAD ENOUGH. SO, THIS MAN MIGHT HA SFUL COUNTER INSURGENCY IN THE PAST, BUT IT REALLY DIDN'T MATTER.

HOST: WHO WOULD HAVE BELIEVED -- WHO WAS A SON IN THE MIDWES VERY , INTELLECTUALLY SPEAKING, UPBRINGING. HIS PARENTS WERE VERY WELL EDUCATED. HE DESCRIBED HIMSELF AS AN UNASSUMING GUY. I THINK HE DESCRIBED HIMSELF AS THE SORT OF MAN WHO WOULD ATTRA ATTENTION OF A WAITER IN ANY DECENT --

THAT'S RIGHT, HE'S VERY UNASSUMING, KIND OF LOOKS LIKE WALLY COX. HE CULTIVATED THAT LOOK. HE WORGLASSES, HE WAS 5'7", QUIET MAN, SOFT SPOKEN. GUY WAS TOUGH AS NAILS.

HOST: AND PROVED IT EARLY ON.

HE WAS WORLD WAR  BOOK, THE NAME OF A SPECIAL COMMANDO THAT TRAINED IN SCOTLAND. HE'D DRAW BEHIND ENEMY LINES IN FRANCE AND IN NORWAY, RAISING UP SISTANCE WITH THE NAZIS, WON THE SILVER BRZE STAR. WA WAR II HERO.

HOST: HE WAS ONE OF --

HOST: IT'S FAIR TO SAY IFNOT CREATION, HE WAS PRESENT DAY AFTER ANYWAY.

THAT'S E RIGHT. DONOVAN AS YOU KNOW CRTHE LSS, THEE ESPIONAGE COMMANOPERATION THAT THE U.S. EMPLOYED TO HELPEAT THE NAZIS. COLBY WAS ONE OF HIS PROTEGE. COLBY GOT A LAW DEGREE D WENT TO WORK FOR DONOVAN IN NEW YORK AND WAS WITH NOVAN PLOTTING TO CONVINCE THE COUNTO CREATE PEACE TIME INTELLIGENCE AGENCY. SO, HE WAPRESENT AT THE CREATION OF THCIA IN 1947.

HOST: HIS EARLY YEARS WITH THE AGENCY FOUND HIM IN SCANDINAVIA AND IN ITALY, NOTABLY IN ITY WHERE HE WAS PRETACTIVE THERE.

HE WAS. BILL COLBY WASN'TAL A SPY STRICTLY SPEAKING. HE WOUBE IDENTIFIED MORE WITH COVERT OPERATIONS BRANCH OF THE CIA. PSYCHOLOGICAL WARFARE, COUNTER INSURGENCY, NATILDING. BUT HE DID HAVE ONE EXPERIEN AS A SPY, AND THAT WAS IN SCANDINAVIA IN THE EARLY 1950 WHEN THE FEAR WAS SOVIET UNION WAS ING TO OVERRUN THE REGION. WHAT HE WAS CREATE STAY BEHIND GROUPS. HE RECRUITED WOULD-BEOMMANDOS AND GORILLA GUEA SO WE WOULD HAVE A FORCE ON THE GROUND. HE WENT ON TO ITALY AS YOU SAY, HE SPECIALIZED IN POLITICAL WARFARE. HE HAD MAN NAMED TOM MCCOIF PROVIDED MILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF AID  POLITICAL PARTIES TO KEEP THE COMMUNISTS FROM KING OVER THE COUNTRY AT THE POLLS.

HOST: WE MOVE -- LET'S GO INTO THE '60S NOW. THE COLD WAR AT LEAST IN ASIA IS GETTING QUITE WARM. CERTAINLY BY THE MID 1960S. YOU POY MR. COLE BY AS SOMETHING OF I WANT TO A A CALVINIST, BUT HE WAS A MISSIONARY.

HE WAS CATHOLIC, HE WAS A JEZ WITNES WE WOULD CHARACTERIZE HIM AS A JE HE WAS A DEVOUTCATHOLIC, EDUCATED, BUT HAD A SENSE OF MISSIOA VERY STRONG MISSION.

HOST: AND THAT SINCLED -- HE WOULD RATHER CONVERT THAN KILL.

THAT'S RIGHT. HE WAS -- HE WAS, YOU KNOW, A POLITICAL LIBERAL, BUT A STAUNCH ANTICOMMUNIST. COMMUNISM FOR IDEOLOGICAL TO REASONS. BECAUSE WAS BRUTAL, FREEDOM.DENIED PEOPLE THEIR AND HE BELIEVED THAT IF THE U.S. AND ITS ALLIES WERE GOING TO PREVAIL IN THE THIRD WORLD, THEY WERE GOING TO HAVE TO -- THROUGH ENAB LOCAL DO IT POPULATIONS TO DEFEND THEMSELVES, TO ACCEPT -- TO JECT MARKSISM, LIN ONISM. SO, HIS VIEW OF DEFEATING COMMUNISM SED ON NATION BUILDING AND COUNTER INSURGENCY AND PASSIVE-ICATION. HE WAS MUCHO THE MASSIVE AMERICAN BUILDUP. ~

HOST: WAS A BELIEVER, TOO, IN THE SENSE THAT THIS LITTLE COUNTRY, SOUTH VIETNAM, IT COULD BE -- SAY, FOR EXAMPLE, HE WAS PROFOUNDLY ADMINISTRATION'S -- KENNEDY ADMINISTRATION'S DEA VERY BIVAL MILITARY. THE AMERICAN MILITARY, SOUTH VIETNAMESE MILITARY. HE WAS A WARRIOR HIMSELF, BUT HE WAS TRAINED AS A CONSTITUTIONAL LAWYER. HE BELIEVED IN CIVILIAN CONTROL OF THE MILITARY. E ZIEN BROTHERS, IN HIS VIEW, CERTAINLY THEIR PROBLEMS, BUT HE BELIEVED THAT THEY WERE PATRIOTS AND THAT -- AND THEY WERE NOT MILITARY.

HOST: THEY WERE ALSO CATHOLIC.

THEY WERE CATHOLIC, ABSOLUTELY.FMMSTRONG SENSE OF COMMUNITY. AND, OF COURSE, --

HOST: WITHOUT GUILT.

THEY WERE TOUGH GUYS. YOU KNOW, TH UN ME OF THAME FROM COUNTRIES THAT HAD BEEN OVERRUN BY THE SOVIETS FROM POLAND AND CZECHOSLOVAKIA. COLBY WAS NOT ONE OF THOSE, BUT -- AND THESE FOLKS WERE CATHOLIC. SO, THERE WASTHERE WAS NATURAL BOND THERE.

HOST: YEAH. WELL, COULD HE RECONCILE HIMSELF TO THE -- HOW DID HE RECONCILE HIMSELF OR WAS IT A MATTER OF RECONCILING HIMSELF TO THE T E SAIGON GOVERNMENT?

COLBY, ONE OF THE THINGS I FOUND INTERESTING ABOUT HIM FOR THE SUBJECT FOR THE BIOGRAPHY WAS THAT HE LIVED A KIND OF MORAL WILDERNESS AS A MAN OF N . BUT HE WAS ALSO TYPICALLY FOR A COLD WARRIOR, HE WAS DEALING WITH REGIMES WHO WERE THE LESSER OF TWO EVILS. AND THIS WAS A TYPICAL CONUNDRUFOUND OURSELVES SUPPORTI REGIMES THAT WERE LESS THAN DEMOCRATIC, LESS THAN LIBERAL, BUT SUPPORTING THEM BECAUSE THEY WERE ANTICOMMUNIST. AND COLBY WAS SOMETHING OF AND CATHOLICISM CAME INTO PLAY HERE. HE DIDN'T BELIEVE THAT THE BUDDHISTS REALLY WERE A SUFFICIENT VEHICLE FOR FIGHTING COMMUNISM. THE RELIGION HE BELI TOO A MOUS.

HOST: NO STRUCTURE.

NO STRUCTURE. AND, SO, ONLY 10% OF THE SOUTH VIETNAM ARE CATHOLIC. BUT THE BROTHERS WERIN SO, COWAS WILLING TO SUSPEND HIS DEMOCRATIC BELIEFS TEMPORARILY THERE.

HOST: AND I THINK A LOT OF TING BECAUSE HERE YOU A GUY WHO WAS AN A-D-A STYLE LIBERAL.

THAT'S RIGHT.

HOST: DOMESTICALLY, FEROCIOUSLY ANTICOMMUNIST.

RIGHT.

HOST: BELIEVED IN CIVILIAN CONTROL OF THE MILITARY, BUT THEN SPENT HIS ENTIRE  MUHALL O WHERE MORAL RELATIVISM IS AT WORK EVERY DAY.

YEAH, I MENTIONED TO YOU IN ANOTHER CONVERSATION BEFORE HE DROPPED INTO FRANCE, HE "7 PIOF BY T.E. LAURENCE WHICH IS AN ACCOUNT OF LAURENCE'S ESCAPADES IN THE MIDDLE EASTERN WORLD WAR , AND HE WAS TRYING TO RAISE UP ARAB RESISTANCE TO THE TURKS. IT WAS A KINDOF MANUAL FOR COLBY TO FOLLOW IN TERMS OF COVERT OPERATIONS. MY SON IS AN HISTORIAN. HE WAS INTERESTED IN THAT BECAUSE THE 7 PILLARS OF WISDOM WAS ABOUT A MAN WHO WAS TRYING TOFIND  HOW MUCH EVIL HE WAS WILLING TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR IN THE NAME OF THE CAUSE HE WAS FIGHTING FOR. TO WHAT LENGTHS WOULD HE ALLOW HIMSELF TO GO TO SERVE THE CAUSE HE WAS FIG THINK THAT'S RESONATED WITH COLBY.

HOST: HE TITLED HIS AUTO BIOGRAPHY OR MEMOIR "HONORABLE MAN."

RIGHT.

HOST: AND AT ONE POINT IN CONGRESSIONAL TESTIMONY OR A SPEECH AT SOME POINT, HE SITO TAKE ON FACE VALUE THAT WE OF THE CIA, WE ARE HONORABLE MEN. WE ARE TRYING TO ACT IN YOUR INTERESTS.

THAT'S RIGHT.

HOST: AND YOU MAY NOT WANT TO ASK US TOO MANY QUESTIONS.

THAT'S RIG IN 1953, JAMES DOOLITTLE OF WORLD WAR FAME, SUBMITTED A REPORT AND IT WASN'T MADE PUBLIC UNTIL 30 L DOO LITTLE LOOKED AT THE COLD WAR AND SOVIET AND CHINESE COMMUNISM AND HE TOLD THE EISENHOWER ADMINISTRATION AND TOLD THE CIA, HE SAID, WE'RE DEALING WITH AN ENEMY WHICH IS -- WILL GO TO ANY LENGTHS TO WIN. NO THEY WILL USE ANY TECHNIQUE WIN.  AND IF WE DON'T MEET THEM ON THEIR OWN GROUND, IF WE AREN'T AS RUTHLESS AS THEY ARE, WE'RE GOING TO LOSE THIS WAR. AND I THINK THAT'S WAS TOP CRET WIDELY CIRCULATED IN THE POLICY ESTABLISHMENT OF THE CIA. I THINK THAT'S THE PREMATURE THAT COLBY AND HIS COLLEAGUES OPERATED UNDER. SO, THEY WERE CONSTANTLY HAVING TO CHOOSE THE LESSER OF TWO

HOST: SOME HOSE EVILS, WHETHER THEY WERE GOOD EVILS, BAD EVILS, THEY BEGAN TO SURFACE IN THE EARLY 1970S.

RIGHT, FAMILY JEWELS.

HOST: THE FAMILY JEWELS THEY WERE CALLED. PRESS INQUIRIES REPORTING, CONGRESSIONAL HEARINGS, ET CETERA. AND AMERICA DIDN'T ALWAYS LIKE WHAT IT SAW. IT WAS A LITTLE UNSETTLED.

THE STORIES ABOUT ASSASSINATION PLOTS AGAINST FOREIGN LEADERS, FIDEL CASTRO, DOMINICAN REPUBLIC, THE GOVERNMENT IN CHILE, THE PHOENIX PROGRAM COLBY RAN IN VIETNAM, SOUTH VIETNAMESE TRYIN KILLED 20,000 VIETKONG CAD RE, DOMESTIC ORGANIZATIONS LIKE NATIONAL STUDENT. THESE BEGAN TO COME TO LIGHT. OPENINGS.XACTLY, DOMESTIC MAIL AND COLBY, WHO HAD BEEN -- HE WAS CHOSEN DIRECTOR OF CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE IN 1973 BY RICHARD NIXON AND HENRE KISSINGER BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT HE WOULD BE A GOOD SOLDIER AND KEEP THE SECR

HOST: HE'S AT THE TOP OF ORGANIZATION.

HE'S AT THE TOP OF THE ORGANIZATION, HE'S IN CHARGE. STONE WALL, NO LESS THAN SIX COMMITTEES WERE INVESTIGATING THE CIA DTH1970S AND COLBY  DEAL WITH THEM. THE WHITE HOUSE WANTED HIM TO STONE WALL. THAT WAS THE CULTURE IN THE CIA, ABSOLUTE SECRECY, ABSOLUTE DENIAL. BUT COLBY BELIEVED -- COLBY HAD -- HE WAS TRAINED AS A CONSTITUTIONAL LAWYER AND  IN THE '70S, THE WHOLE ANTIWAR PHENOMENA HAD TARGETED THE CIA AS A SORT OF CUTTING EDGE OF, OF ALL THE EVILS WAS AFRAID THA WASN'T -- IF HE WAS NOT AT LEAST SOMEWHAT FORTHCOMING WITH CONGRESS, THAT CONGRESS MIGHT VERY WELL ELIMINATE THE CIA. AND THAT WAS THE CLIMATE HE WAS OPERATING WITH. AND, SO, HE DEFINED TE35 TIMES BEONGRESSIONAL COMMITTEES. AND HE DIDN'T REALLY GIVE OUT SECRETS. WHAT HE DID WAS TO CONFIRM WHAT THE PRESS WAS ALREADY REPORTING. BUT THE CIA STILL -- THAT COMMUNITY STILL DEEPLY DENIED ABOUT COLBY. HI OTHERS AS A KIF SAVIOR.

HOST: HOW ABOUT THOSE CONGRESSIONAL COMMITTEES? BASICALLY TWO SCHOOLS OF THOUGHT , CERTAINLY THE SENATE. PROBABLY THE LARGER CONGRESS AS WELL. YOU HAD THE SOUTHERN BARRONS WHO RAN THE SENATE.

RIGHT. CERTAINLY IN THE '60S, WHO PERHAPS WERE CHARGED WITH OVERSIGHT, BUT DIDN'T WANT TO EXERCISE IT.

THAT'S RIGHT.

HOST: THE LESS THEY NEWSEUMINGLY, THE BETTER THEY LIKED IT. ON THE OTHER  THE ARKANSAN, MR. MCCLELLAN, MR RUSSELL EASTMAN, THEY JUST -- YOU'RE DOING A GOOD JOB, NO NEED FOR YOU TO TESTIFY. ~ ON THE OTHER HAND YOU HAD MR. FULBRIGHT OF ARKANSAS, CHAIR OF FOREIGN RELATIONS, AND SOME OF HIS TE WHO SAID, WAIT A MINUTE, WAIT A MINUWHAT ARE YOU GUYS UP TO? WHAT ARE YOU DOING? WE NEED TO KNOW.

THAT'S RIGHT. FRANK CHURCH, FULBRIGHT LEADING LIGHT, BUT MIKE MANSFIELD,TO TH THAT THE ABILITY OF THE KENNEDY AND JOHNSON AND NIXON ADMINISTRATIONS TO, TO CONDUCT EVADE CONGRESSIONAL OVERSIGHT HAD GOTTEN THE COUNTRY -- HAD UNDERMINED ITS PRINCIPLES, HAD GOTTEN US INVOLVED IN WARS THAT WERE STRATEGICALLY RP IC AND, LED BY FULBRIGHT, THIS FACTION OF THE SENATE WANTED TO CEASE CONTROL -- SEIZE OVERSIGHT OF THE CIA FROM EAST LAND AND RU THERE WAS A BISTRUGGLE, A BRAWL REALLY IN CONGRESS BETWEEN THESE TWO FACTIONS. AND YOU COULD SAY THAT THAT BRAWL CULMINATED DURING COLBY'S TENURE.

HOST: WITH THE FAMILY JEWELS.

RIGHT.

HOST: SUDDENLY THEY HAD ALL HAOST: WELLIN THE CIA, YOU MAKE CLEAR -- THERE ARE TWO CIAS, THERE ARE TWO FACTIONS.

THAT'S RIGHT.

HOST: FOREVER HAVE THEY BEEN AT ODDS, BUTTING HEADS.

YES,FUHE CIA. TRADITIONAL ONE IS ESPIONAGE, THE GATHERING OF SECRETS, THE RUNNING OF AGENTS, AND COUNTER ESPIONAGE, PREVENTING OUR ENEMIES FROM PENETRATING OUR INTELLIGENCE APPARATUS. THE OTHER BRANCH WHICH COLBY RE DO WITH COVERT OPERATIONS, SECRET ARMIES, POLITICAL ACTION, COUPS, COUNTER OPERATIONS.COVERT OPERA COUNTER INTELLIGENCE AND INTELLIGENCE REALLY CHARACTERIZED OUR RELONSHIP WITH THE SOVIET UNION. AND TO A CERTAIN EXTENT, WITH COMMUNIST CHINA. BUT IN THE THIRD WOREV WHERE THE CIA -- WHERE THE COLD WAR THAT'S WHERE COVERT IONS -- THAT'S WHERE COLBY'S BRANCH CAME INTO BEING. BUT THEY DIDN'T TRUST EACH OTHER AND COLBY REPRESENTED COVERT OPERATIONS. THE THING WAS SPY, COUNTER SPY, JAMES SINGLE TON REPRESENTED R LL WERE -- THEY WERE AT EACH OTHER'S THROATS PERIODICALLY THROUGHOUT THE COLD WAR.

AND I'M TRYING TO REMEMBER AT ONE POINT IN THE BOOK, THIS TENSION WITHIN THE CIA, YOU WRITE, GIVEN PROMISE EITHER TO THAT MOLD.

YEAH.

HOST: DEFINING THE COLD WAR AS THE CIA VERSUS THE KGB

HOST: RUSSIA.U.S. AGAINST - IT BECAME SPY VERSUS SPY.

THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT.

HOST: THE AGENCY LOST OUT --

THAT WAS CERTAINLY COLBY'S PERSPECTIVE BECAUSE BY THE TIME HE BECAME DCI -- HE WAS ABLE TO FIND -- BY THE TIME HE BECAME DIRECTOR OF CENTRA INTELLIGENCE, THE ESPIONAGE WING  OF THE RUSSIAN -- THE SOVIET AND EAST EUROPEAN INTELLIGENCE DEPARTMENT WAS HAMSTRUNG BY ANGLE TOS G FOR MOLES. AND WHAT THE SOVIET AND EAST EUROPEAN DIVISION AND THE CIA WAS SUPPOSED TO DO WAS RECRUIT AGENTS TO PERSUADE COMMUNISTS AND SOVIET UNION BLOCK TO DEFECT, TO -- BUT ANGLE TON BELIEVED THAT EVERYBODY THAT THEY RECRUITED WAS A DOUBLE AGENT, AND HE EVEN CAME TO BELIEVE THAT MEMBERS OF THE -- AMERICAN MEMBERS OF THE SOVIET SOVIET AGENTS.

HOST: COLBY --

EVEN COLBY, HE INTIMATED THAT INCREASINGLY AS COLBY PUT PRESSURE, INTIMATED THAT COLBY MIGHT BE THE SOVIET MOLE THAT T INTELLIGENCE AGENTV IS. OST: THAT TENSION, NOTWITHSTANDING MR. COLE BY HIMSELF, SEEMS TO HAVE WRESTLED WITH -- WELL, IN A SPEECH, I THINK IT WAS IN A SPEECH YOU QUOTED, TO WRESTLE WITH WHAT THIMORACY. AND HE SAID, WE'RE NOT MMI5. WE'RE CERTAINLY NOT THE KGB OR WE SHOULDN'T BE, AND WE'RE NOT THE CHINESE SERVICE. WE'RE NOT THE EAST GERMAN WOULD THE CIA BE? SEEMS LIKE A SIMPLE QUESTION, BUT TO MR. COLE BY, IT WAS PRETTY COMPLICATED.

COLBY, AFTER HE LEFT THE CIA, WROTE AOF A NEW Y IN THE U.S. GOVERNMENT THAT REALLY ESSENTIALLY WAS CORDS. IT WOULD BE AN AGENCY THAT WAS MADE UP OF MILITARY INTELLIGENCE PEOPLE, FOREIGN SERVICE AGRICULT WORKERS, THAT WOULD -- HE SAW THAT INTERNATIONAL CONFLICT IN THE U.S. INCREASINGLY WAS NOT GOING TO BE BETWEEN NATIONS, BUT IT WAS GOING TO BE TRANSNATIONAL, INVOLVING WHAT WE NOW CALL TERRORIST GROUP-- WANTED TO CREATE A NEW AGENCY THAT WOULD DO COVERT OPERATIONS , AND LEAVE THE GATHERING OF INTELLIGENCE, THE GATHERING OF INFORMATION, DEFENSE INTELLIGEN AGENCY AND THAT SORT OF THING. BUT COLBY DIDN'T -- COLBY SAID SOMETHING VERY INTERESTING, I THINK, FOR THE HEAD OF A SPY AGENCY. LEONID BRESNIF VISITED WASHINGTON WHILE HEAD OF THE SOVIET PARTY AND THE GOVERNING APPARATUS. BRESNIF SAID, SHOULD I BE AFRAID? HE SAID, NO. THE MORE OUR TWO COUNTRIES KNOW ABOUT EACH OTHER, THE SAFER WE ARE. NOW, THAT'S A STRANGE THING TO SAY FOR A HEAD OF THE CIA, BUT IT GIVES YOU THE KIND OF BROADER PERSPECTIVE THCOLBY BROUGH INTELLIGENCE WORK. THE IDEA HERE IS TO MAINTAIN PEACEFUL COEXISTENCE UNTIL COMMUNISM COLLAPSED OF ITS OWN INTERNAL CONTRADICTIONS. NOT TO TRIUMPH OVTHE KGB AT ALL COST. AND, SO -- BUT THATS WAS A HERETICAL POSITION FOR MANY IN THE CIA.

HOST: WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A BREAK IN OUR CONVERSATION WITH RANDALL WOODS.E, WE THANK YOU V MUCH FOR YOUR AND RANDALL FOR HIS, DR. WOODS FOR HIS. WE WOULD ENCOURAGE YOU, THOUGH, TO GO TO THE AETN WEBSITE WHERE WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE OUR CONVERSATION FOR JUST A LITTLE BIT LONGER. RANDALL WOODS, THANKS VERY MUCH FOR THIS TIME.WARRIOR, AM E. COLBY AND THE CIA."

THANK YOU.

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